InstantForum.NET v4.1.4Surefish.co.uk discussion forumhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/surefishsupport@christian-aid.orgThu, 09 Sep 2010 10:50:56 GMT20http://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxTimothy Rees' hymn "God is love, let heaven adore him" includes these lines:[center]"And when human hearts are breakingUnder sorrow's iron rod,Then they find that self-same achingDeep within the heart of God."[/center]That is the real meaning of the cross; in the life and death of Jesus, God entered into the whole of human experience, took it into himself, and thus embraced his people to walk with us and carry us through it.Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:23:49 GMTTony Bhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxGod is, as always, right there in the suffering. God is under the rubble with survivors and those who have died. God is lying on a stretcher with the injured patient and crying with the traumatised child. We have a beautiful piece of artwork. fashioned in Haiti from banan fibre and leaf. It reads, 'Pov yo se Kris La' (the poor are Christ) and depicts a peasant washing another's feet. This is the message of Christ crucified: God suffered death for us and shares in our suffering now. S/He weeps with us over the plight of Ayiti but also gives us the strength and will to overcome these terrors through acts of love and faith. This is why Haitians are able to survive for so long in totally adverse conditions: they are people of great faith and many, sadly, have lived their whole lives in total hardship and struggle. Many have willingly gone without food for days in the past, in order to pay their children's school fees or to feed other more needy family members. The Haitian people are an example to those of us who live in ease. If you want to know where God is in Haiti, ask a few Haitians and they will tell you. Our experience of Haiti was that questions asked may be, 'How am I going to eat?' 'How can we pay for that?' 'Who will help me do this for my children?' but never, 'Where is God?'Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:04:15 GMTKetchuphttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxHi, I'm new here and would like to respond to this thread.It reminds me of similar discussions that went on in the aftermath of the Asian tsunami (and many other natural disasters before). I think the idea that God is a 24/7 interventionist comes directly from the Bible - that seems to be the kind of God the Jews believed in - and the account of Jesus calming the storm in the gospels seems to add weight to that too.There was a theologian who was asked what was the will of God when the tsunami struck, and his reply was "that the earth's crust should behave according to its nature, just as all of his creatures should behave according to their nature." He pointed out that the movement and renewal of the earth's crust is essential for life to exist at all on this planet - without that it would slowly die - and so eathquakes and volcanoes etc are an inevitable occurrence. Not much consolation to those caught in the middle of them, I know. Maybe in the end all we can say is that we don't know why God created a world like this? But that he is with us in all of our experiences and in the suffering we endure.Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:49:01 GMTCharishttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspx"Why do people assume that god will intervene to avert these occurrences? Who came up with the bizarre idea from that god is a 24/7 interventionist character who will always step in and come to our aid?"It's really the consequences of dogmatic theology. A picture has developed of God as all-powerful and all-loving, and this is the God who created our world. As you say, the world he has created is necessarily fluid and mobile, with earthquakes and volcanoes, and a weather system which generates extreme conditions - all of which are dangerous or lethal to living creatures. Now, if God is truly all-powerful, we could reasonable ask why he didn't come up with a kind of creation in which such things didn't happen - or if they must happen, to be able to intervene and rescue his children. If he is all-loving, we would expect him to want to protect his children against all such dangers. The argument is that since he does neither, he is either unable to intervene (so not all-powerful) or unwilling to intervene (so not all-loving).Such arguments seem to me to be very black-and-white, very philosophical, and fail to grasp the central idea of God as Person in relationship with his creation and his children. To illustrate simply, I love my children dearly and would do anything in my power to keep them safe and happy. I also have had to know when to stand back and let hem make the mistakes that are part of life, and let them grow up and fly the nest to make heir own lives. That necessarily means allowing them to live among risks, but be at a distance when they face those risks. When it goes belly-up, I hurt with them, and if I'm able, I'm there to help them pick up the pieces. But my love for them as individuals living their own lives doesn't permit me to intervene and micromanage their lives.In the same way, God has given us the kind of creation in which we have the freedom to live and grow. He involves himself with us at the appropriate level, giving us space, but not thereby ceasing to love or care. In Christ, and especially through the cross, he has engaged with the depths of human suffering - he doesn't stand back uncaring or helpless, but he knows our hurt and shares it.Where was God in Haiti? In the rubble, in the camps, in the tears with his children. And in the hands of those who flew in to dig them out and feed them.Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:44:06 GMTTony Bhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxNatural disasters happen because they happen. That is the way nature operates. The Earth is geologically active, earthquakes will occur, volcanoes will erupt, etc, etc.Why do people assume that god will intervene to avert these occurrences? Who came up with the bizarre idea from that god is a 24/7 interventionist character who will always step in and come to our aid?Using disasters such as Haiti to deny god's existence or to malign his/her character shows the intellectual development of a pretty dim 3 year old.Sh1t happens! Deal with it.Winnie.Fri, 22 Jan 2010 23:11:04 GMTWinnie the Poohhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxNice one Andy !! :)If anyone else does this, please consider leaving a comment because it usually has much more impact that simply ticking a box, or donating an autograph.MiniThu, 21 Jan 2010 14:11:28 GMTMinihttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxJoin Christian Aid's campaign to cancel Haiti's $890m debt burden.[url=http://www.christianaid.org.uk/emergencies/current/haiti-earthquake-appeal/index.aspx]Click here[/url]Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:58:29 GMTEditor Andyhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxWell if the bible is to be believed, than God can at least foresee these disasters. Noah's Ark comes to mind.Today we have scientists who are becoming profits of doom. Haiti is in what geologist call an active zone. My daughter has asked we steer clear of Istanbul. It is in an active quake region, and geologists (profits of doom) predict that a quake in that region will kill 1,000,000+ . However, soon in geological time scale is anytime in the next 1000 years.As far as I know, nobody has thought to empty the region of all living entities. That would be a task of unthinkable proportions. All we can do is hope for the best and help if their predictions come true in our lifetimes.MiniThu, 21 Jan 2010 11:50:00 GMTMinihttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxOne can only hope that the deity, if it exists, has no power over the forces of nature or any physical input in our world. The idea that he could act to prevent a disaster but does nothing is too horrible to contemplate.Wed, 20 Jan 2010 07:56:43 GMTnewleprechaunhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxNatural disasters are just that, natural. God does not allow them, they just occur. Why do people believe that God has power over nature? Perhaps we ought to see this sort of disaster as an opportunity to do something good rather than looking for someone or something to blame.MiniTue, 19 Jan 2010 18:38:23 GMTMinihttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspx[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8467755.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8467755.stm[/url]The BBC Magazine's website has published an article along similar lines.AndyTue, 19 Jan 2010 16:13:05 GMTEditor Andyhttp://www.fish.co.uk/forum/Topic7599-4-1.aspxLooking at the images from Haiti, and having watched the Tsunami in video programme over Christmas, I'm always fascinated about how Christians respond to the question about the presence and will of God when such disasters occur. What do you say to people when asked this, or is this not a religious question because of this being a natural disaster (although creationists could be questioned about why God made such a flawed place to live on!)Your contributions welcome.Andy[url=http://www.surefish.co.uk/donate]http://www.surefish.co.uk/donate[/url]Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:50:18 GMTEditor Andy